hello and welcome to crossfire were all things considered i'm peter lavelle palestine and the road ahead washington so-called peace process to resolve the israel palestine conflict has produced little if any results in fact the palestinians are experiencing excel aerated illegal land seizures palestine is quickly being wiped off the map is it time to accept a one state solution and or look to global institutions like the un to replace the current negotiating framework. cross-talk the palestine israel conflict i'm joined by my guest so ryan support ehrlich in irvine she is an independent researcher and writer and in new york we cross to norman finkelstein he is a political analyst and author of crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it norman you've been a great scholar of the so-called peace process of the last twenty years coming to

the studio today i noticed that the u.s. secretary of state has gone to the middle east to kick start talks well i could have read that headline almost any month of the last twenty years so norman isn't it time to start a new format because it can't go in nowhere i don't quite agree with peter we have to be careful about what's happening now because i do think it is going somewhere but not the place where justice would more to go right now secretary of state kerry president obama and various other parties to the conflict seem pretty optimistic that they can ram down the road to the palestinians is really types of them and of the conflict but the palestinians have never been weaker than hamas is now a no. the power of so-called. how student in authority is totally dependent upon the

united states and europe to study the law you've supported economically the palestinians are in a very difficult situation probably they have never been weaker and now the united states along with the e.u. incidentally united states and the e.u. there is a historic opportunity to resolve the conflict. in such a way to the palestinians who are left with virtually nothing ok saran so what kind of agreement is that how could you have an agreement like that with no justice. i honestly don't believe this time so going anywhere and i don't think they're intended to go anywhere is just lip service if you look as mr obama's speech in two thousand and eleven the word he actually mentioned the nine hundred sixty seven borders with some swaps it was intended for the palestinians not to ask for recognition at the united nations and after that mr netanyahu came to the united

states and i'm sure your viewers would know that congress has far more powers or is the most powerful branch of the u.s. government he came and here dressed the united states congress in fourteen men as he got twenty nine standing ovations in which he categorically refuse to recognize those boundaries and i think it's very important to understand that as long as there is an alley it that means every jewish person from anywhere in the vault can go and live in israel then israel is to continue to expand and is doing so at the expense of the palestinians with american money so no i am for the peace talks i think norman would certainly know the reputation of martin indyk he worked for a packet then his start in washington institute for near east policy to give a clear image to the pro israel. doctrine here in the space. act he

is not a person that would be suitable for negotiating peace talks if peace talks are to take place and certainly not somebody as biased and as pro israel is. ok norman and you know what i saw you on democracy now with mr martin and he wasn't very pleased to see you i remember. can you report react to what's what we just heard in irvine because i mean when you look at something somebody like martin indyk i have to keep being reminded is he negotiating for the americans or is the negotiating for the israelis because it's hard to tell. well i think that one have to look at what the rhetorical position of people like prime minister netanyahu netanyahu is and what their actual position is if you look at the negotiations that took place in annapolis in two thousand and eight it was quite clear what the israeli position was in a word or in a nutshell what israel wants is approximately ten percent of the west bank the area

behind the wall that it's been building taking in the major settlement blocks that israel wants a notification of the palestinian right of return basically an international solution of the refugee question which doesn't allow palestinians to return to what is now the state of israel those are israel's two key demands and the opinion of the united states and israel is and also as i have to say always be your opinion union the position now is let's resolve the conflict according to the israeli terms that is not ten yo who make a grand show where he's withdrawing from ninety percent of the west bank to the ten percent behind the wall and in the exchange for this grand concession by the israelis the palestinians are going to have to give up the right of return that's basically how the theater the drama is going to play itself out and if you look at

yesterday's for example reports yesterday in the israeli press the e.u. made a statement it said to israel and the palestinian authority you better get serious about negotiations now because if you don't resolve the conflict we're going to cease subsidizing the projects no bust bank so basically the e.u. is now colluding collaborating with the us. turning the screws on the public student loans that incidentally is the purpose behind the current murderous blockade of gaza to break the will of the people of god so so they repudiate hamas the palestinian authority will then claim to speak for all the palestinians the palestinian authority will there because he really has no choice concede to the

u.s. is really demands which the e.u. is going along with ok but so ryan it's very interesting what norman has to say going back to annapolis but i don't see mr netanyahu he's not there's not enough pressure on him to change course as a matter of fact if you look at israeli media very close closely and i know norman looks at i mean if the israelis see that they have a whole lot of cards here ok maybe netanyahu and obama don't get along very well but netanyahu does have the congress ok and you know we i don't see a lot of sticks coming out from apac i mean you know iran is one issue but you know when you look at the palestinian israel conflict congress is really very close to netanyahu is positioning and i don't see anything changing it ok the european union will drop funding that's not going to change this the israeli position not one iota i bet. you are going to let me go to iraq you're really going to have insignia on it go ahead. the europeans talk about this a great deal and even as for mr obama's position here when he was running for

office in two thousand and eight he promised and undivided jerusalem to israel as its capital and even president bush has not said anything so outrageous and mr obama keeps on his administration and they keep increasing aid to israel it's not as if you know they're playing good cop bad cop but it depends how seriously you take obama. you know not long ago two three years ago at the state department even a science of money to middle east to memory middle east. media research institute which was founded by an israeli army the idea and it was to pinpoint anti-semitism i mean the israeli is their positions are so backed by the united states and the e.u. is their greatest partner trading partner if things are not going to change until there is awareness amongst the people around the world in america people are simply

too ignorant they have been brainwashed they have freedom of speech but they don't have freedom of thought all the information they have about what's going on in palestine and with the israelis is what the media tells them and the media is squarely in the pockets of the neo cons think tanks run issues and even the universities there's no freedom to discuss the issue of israel and palestine but most importantly we keep thinking about seeing a part seems that it's just a muscle it's the soldier all the same tanks the the alto defamation in the hudson washington is two new policies stop on center these are the people doubt that actually turn out these policies and they're implemented and as as as you said i mean mr obama will be gone the next president can easily overrule what ever he implements so in the important thing is to have congress deal with this situation

and congress is reluctant congress takes his orders from israel it does not serve the american people and to me this is treason this is betrayal and yes they managed to get away with it chuck schumer of new york senator of new york stands up and says i'm the guardian of israel instead of standing up and telling the american people that he is there to serve them he says is the shore of israel the guardian and many other such senators and congressional members ok and they tell me let me let me let norman all and then i want. you want to react to some of the. well peter i'm going to quote someone who i know you don't like so much name me namely vladimir lenin. and one said that the sense of politics lenin once said the essence of politics is the concrete analysis of a concrete situation ok and i think the important thing now because we're heading

towards a historic turning point and we have to be very careful about what's happening we have to be concerned about what's happening we have to concrete concretely analyze this concrete situation the fact of the matter is secretary of state kerry is nobody's fool he would not invest so much time and so much energy in resolving the conflict unless he thought there was a realistic possibility that it can be resolved the last thing kerry wants now norman norman i'm going to let you can you help enormously not to go to was short break all that you could genuinely return after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the palestine israel conflict stay with me. please.

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welcome back to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the palestine israel conflict. ok norman i go back to you in new york let me i want you to react to something a lot of people tell me that study this conflict that they say that if israel stops its colonizing settlement agenda in the west bank and further it risks the very nature the very existence of israel because it must continue down this path because it's become its own true identity. no i don't really think or you know there is this tendency to look at countries in terms of this notion of original sin that is to say israel was born in sin and therefore has to live in sin

and therefore there is no possibility of it changing any state has within the possibilities of change i lived in the united states through the civil rights era when i was growing up in the earth in the one nine hundred fifty s. black people were still being lynched in the american south i lived through a transfer medicine transformation such that the president of the united states is now african-american if you look at the first half of the twentieth century without trying to excuse any of the other great powers i think it's fair to say that the most motorist and racist powers on earth in the first half of the twentieth century were germany and japan but if you look at b.b.c. world service pose from the last twenty years when the countries around the world when the public opinion around the world is asked the question which countries in

the world have the most positive the most favorable impact on international relations if you look at these b.b.c. polls believe there are no every year germany is number one and japan is number two or japan is number one and germany is number two countries can change ok that it's no mention or many of my years here in the army but if i use your logic then if i use your logic then israel must be invaded and conquered in occupied like germany and like japan to change its behavior that's the logic. well not exactly peter because i began with the example of the american south and you can also take the example of south africa and those two. instances where that required was a mass popular nonviolent movement supported by international public opinion those

were the key ingredients that be a mass popular nonviolent movement with a large amount of international support i think the same formula that worked in the american south and worked in south africa i think that formula can also work to end the israeli occupation ok so if i go back to irvine a i have to i will agree with norman that countries can change their countries can change for the worse look at the i think the better ones would probably agree with that i think you know africa africans that are all so ended up in israel somehow we probably agree that things are changing for the worse because each government gets more and more right wing and more and more racist what use can you hear on israeli television would be is for begging on american television because some officials are so blatantly racist. i'm just sure and again i do agree with norm also that countries can change but

they can only change if there's a will to change israel does not have this well if you look at the popularity of mr netanyahu in israel his popularity is an all time high after he basically sufism mr obama about the you know to state solution and norm himself has was kind enough to pass a youtube video of israelis are using children young children teaching them hatred discrimination and the law to kill arabs lebanese gazans so there is no wills are to change and america's encouraging this by allowing it to happen by overriding every single un security council resolution if you go sitters were to a library they they gladly and proudly mention how many times the us has vetoed un security council resolutions there can be no change when there's no will and one of the most important factors is israel has a need to expand it because it wants to embrace more and more people at the moment

you know we were talking talks may go somewhere but the children of gaza the people of gaza are walking in sewage to go to school if there's a school to be found because there's no fuel why is there no fuel in one thousand nine hundred nine there was no massive amounts of gas in gaza british gas was going to explore israel put a stop to it sharon said i will never buy gas from gaza they want to own it they want to own the water in the region because the if you expand and you have land people need water you make import fuel but you can't do it with water so they wanted to get water from turkey and in order to do that iraq and syria has to be eliminated so that there's no stop to this and own as you say you hear things on israeli television you don't hear in america and america sanitizes. everything the american people continue to hear from their officials that israel is our democratic

ally in the region that is so false it is not an ally is costing america so much money it's bankrupted america's physically morally and politically and it's not an ally it's is just destroying the countries around and it's destroyed america's standing in the world and the people of america need to be informed he says nobody is talking about what's happening in gaza in west fact what israel is doing we're talking about all other things here in america there's a deliberate attempt to keep the people ignorant god forbid the americans should stand up and say i don't want my money to go to people who committing heinous crimes borderline genocide and i can't eat here i'm hopeless but i'm contributing not only to the people of israel that are there at the moment but anybody who wishes to come with us from africa whether it's from asia they can everybody can go there and my tax dollars will fund them this is what americans don't know and it's

it's about time that the other media started concentrating on this but then of course the media goes well we know who the ownerships are normally you know convince me that netanyahu is going to pull ukraine goes to china. try to convince me. peter i think there is a misunderstanding here and i'm doing my best to try to clarify a number one just let me get back to the point that was just made ok of course i agree that israel unless it's forced to won't change the african-american luzhin the frederick douglass he famously said power never concedes anything without a demand never has it never will so of course pressure has to be applied to israel in order to get the two to act in accordance with international law i have no doubt about that that's why i said there has to be

a mass movement from below that has to be nonviolent and there has to be a lot of international popular public opinion support to get israel to budge so on that point there is no disagreement between any of us now on the question of not in yahoo you have to remember that israel if there were an academy award for best dramatic performance by a country israel would win every year it's a real it's a theater and not to know who of course not to know who is the star of the theater so i said a few moments ago that we have to distinguish between israel's rhetorical position and its actual position now simply livni who was the foreign minister in two thousand and eight she's repeatedly said that the wall israel is building the wall is our final border israel wants about ten percent of the west bank

which includes some of the most orrible land it includes the critical border resources it includes east jerusalem and very sickly it tries sext the west bank leaving the palestinians a bad. so effectively they want ten percent of the west bank but not ten yahoo star of the show he pretends that israel wants all of the west bank and then during the go she ari sheehan's the claim will be that israel is making a heart wrenching concession as it gives up ninety percent of the us bank but by giving up ninety percent of the west bank this will then get to keep all it really once exactly as sippy livni keep saying the wall is our final border israel wouldn't be investing billions and billions of dollars into building

this wall if it wanted territory beyond the wall ok if i go back to irvine you know i mean i say i had a hard time doing if not if go ahead go ahead ahead go. jumping i'm sorry it's not just the wall and the west bank and gaza they're in lebanon now or syria actually because it's syria golan's there is they're drilling gaster they're taking somebody else's gas and oil they're not content i mean it's it would be enormous far too bright or far too ill informed to be naive enough to take the words of an israeli leader when it comes to their expansion and their expansionist policies they are never content they are always asking for more and it's in the end this for some bizarre will not for some bizarre reason the united states always gives in to them it's become this they've become like the monster of frankenstein i mean the united

states made israel to what it is today with all that support and now it is israel the monster the turns around to dr frankenstein and says obey me and america's obeying and nothing will change unless the mentality yes i'm one hundred percent with with norm that we need grassroots movement but there will be no grassroots movement when people are ignored when people are misinformed deliberately this is censorship one thinks the censorship is is just cutting out news but it's misinformation as well and americans are not being a chance given a chance to learn what's going on norm even in universities you know this you cannot discuss israel in universal right i'm not alone that's very critical ari we've run out of time many thanks my guess and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. next time remember cross talk will.

leave with you. so the lesson we teach to the world is that the best way to defend yourself is to get yourself a nuclear weapon and of course the biggest culprit of using nuclear weapons and producing nuclear weapons and weapons about struction is my birth nation of the united states and i find it absolutely insane that we sit here and talk about iran suppose that nuclear weapons program where you know the united states is producing every kind of weapon under the sun is spending more than every other military on the planet come by and is involved in more war and more death and more suffering than every other nation combined and yet it's sitting there on a pedestal talking about other nations developing weapons of mass destruction it is insane that we even allow them to do this the first nation that needs to disarm without question is the united states.

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protests in ukraine's capital grow in size and number as the so-called million man march ends with a blockade of government buildings and an investigation into alleged attempts to seize power. a fresh round of arrests in bahrain brings the total number of jail to nearly three thousand in the almost three year uprising claiming the crackdown is intensifying. and a war on the workers the british government's accused of attacking trade unions after ordering an investigation into so-called protesting tactics.